Funny you should ask. I visited Johns Hopkins today. Their medical facility is what the future of medicine should be.
It is not my job to do something to "healthcare." We have the best doctors and hospitals in the world. They have kept me alive.
My first concern is that a government based sytem will have regulations that determine that at some time the cost of keeping me alive is not worth it. If my health (and yours) is being paid for by society - the government - at some point government agents will determine that my life is not worth it ... take a pill and wait for death.
No thanks. That's not a decision I will entrust to you, or to anyone.
Is the "system" perfect?
No.
But - like Democracy - it's better than one that's run and regulated by the government.
First, Democracy is regulated to an extant, which is important.
Second, I have actually lived in countries with government run health care, and studied many systems in other countries with government health care, and in no country with government health care are people told not to be taken care of. The only health related organizations that exist today that try to take away your health care are insurance corporations.
Third, yes, the care we get inside the doctors office is the best in the world, but every country that has some type of government run health care actually has a higher average life expectancy then our country does. This should be taken into account.
And fourth, I saw some old videos of debates over things like a minimum wage, seat belts, a nationalized fire department (I didn't watch a video about this one, I read about it) and medicare, and the same argument of government takeovers and socialism were used then as are being used now. Seat belts and a national fire department did not give us socialism.
Also, I was wondering what you thought about the Japanese system? They love their free markets like we do, and their system isn't going so far up in cost like ours.
I liked your clean, policy based response you gave me, unlike all the yelling we hear so much from both sides on the media.
I had just one more question. If you think the government shouldn't tell us how to live, do you think the government should be allowed to tell us who we can and cannot marry? Or weather a woman who has been raped can get an abortion? Again, just wondering. (I hope we can continue to keep this civil)
Of course I can keep it civil. It’s the opposition that has a history of shouting down its opponents. To your points: You: First, Democracy is regulated to an extant [sic] , which is important.
Me: But irrelevant. All “societies” are designed to create rules of behavior as opposed to the anarchy of isolated individuals. Your point is not meaningful in this debate.
You: Second, I have actually lived in countries with government run health care, and studied many systems in other countries with government health care, and in no country with government health care are people told not to be taken care of. The only health related organizations that exist today that try to take away your health care are insurance corporations. Me: Good for you. If you have read me enough you should be aware that I am an immigrant so I am probably even more aware than you are of countries and societies other than the US. The problem with any good or service that is “free” is that there is never an endless supply. So limits have to be set on the amount of that good that can be supplied. In most cases, it’s a matter of rationing – either formally or informally as in the case of waiting lists for medical procedures. In an increasing number of cases in parts of Europe, like the Netherlands, the elderly sick are quietly put to sleep. Obama has explicitly stated in a reply to a woman who inquired about her elderly mother that at some point she should be given a pill – in other words, put down by the government run system.
You: Third, yes, the care we get inside the doctors office is the best in the world, but every country that has some type of government run health care actually has a higher average life expectancy then our country does. This should be taken into account.
Me: Did you actually look at those statistics? You may be surprised by the way that the statistical ages are grouped. And how are those statistics derived? What is the effect of the average life statistic if in once country an infant that dies after birth is called a live birth and in another is not called a live birth? There is a reason why there is an old saying that there are lies, damned lies and statistics. A final point, what does a higher average life expectancy have to do with the quality of medical care that you or I receive? Please consider this point carefully because the two may be totally unrelated.
You: And fourth, I saw some old videos of debates over things like a minimum wage, seat belts, a nationalized fire department (I didn't watch a video about this one, I read about it) and medicare, and the same argument of government takeovers and socialism were used then as are being used now. Seat belts and a national fire department did not give us socialism.
Me: I did not need to see videos of most of those debates. I lived through them. You may find living in a Nanny state to be pleasurable. I do not. The difference between the US and most of the rest of the world is its unique history. We broke the mold of kings and potentates ruling our lives, telling us what to wear, where to live, how to act, where to travel. Keep in mind those rules – every one – were designed for the “good of the people.” Jews were rounded up and liquidated for the good of the master race; kulaks were starved to death to bring the blessings of prosperity to the rest of the Russians. There will always be people who know what’s best for you and when they get their hands on the police powers of the state will enforce their view of a better tomorrow. And somehow, the things they enforce on you and me are never applied to them – like cheating on their income taxes (sound familiar?).
I am unaware that we have a nationalized fire department. Are we speaking the same language?
You: Also, I was wondering what you thought about the Japanese system? They love their free markets like we do, and their system isn't going so far up in cost like ours.
Me: The Japanese are only a generation away from a dictatorship and the worship of their Emperor as a God. I have been there and their society is nothing like ours. Incidentally, they are only a few generations away from disappearing. You should check their birth rates. In fact, you should check the birth rates of most of the countries that Liberals admire. A replacement rate for a population is about 2.1 per female. The US is slightly above that rate. Most of the countries you admire are well below – including Japan and Russia.
You: I liked your clean, policy based response you gave me, unlike all the yelling we hear so much from both sides on the media.
Me: I don’t mind the yelling so much. It’s a pleasure to find that my side has finally found its voice and its own medium. That’s what made the Gates claims of racism ricochet on both Gates and Obama. Democracy and freedom... it’s great.
You: I had just one more question. If you think the government shouldn't tell us how to live, do you think the government should be allowed to tell us who we can and cannot marry? Or weather a woman who has been raped can get an abortion? Again, just wondering. (I hope we can continue to keep this civil)
Me: Let’s take that a few steps further. Regarding marriage, the man/woman model is not something that the government suddenly sprung on us, is it? It’s a virtually universal model. You are asking for the elimination of a cultural rule. But let’s take that one step further. In some societies polygamy and polyandry is legal, should we adopt that? Why limit the state of matrimony to a single species? If I truly love my dog, who are you – your bigot – to tell me who or what I can’t marry?
We have laws in this country and throughout the world against killing another human being. If you consider a baby in the womb a human being, it should be unlawful to kill it. If it’s not a human being, what is it? But let’s take it a few steps further. In ancient Rome it was legal for the father of the family to kill his children who were part of his family. If we can kill children in the womb, why not give us a chance to kill it after it leaves? And what is this about rape? What numbers of abortions are performed on babies that were conceived by rape?
One of the reasons that the Liberal community is so angry at Sarah Palin is that she is a successful woman who has a loving husband and a large family – one of which is a Down’s Syndrome child – who by the Liberal rules should have been aborted. Imagine the gall of achieving all that the Left has said a woman should achieve and to actually deliver a special needs child. Every image of baby Trig is a stick in the eye of the Left.
I don't find yelling random crap in hearings to be civil, buy anyway:
You: (In response to my point about Democracy)But irrelevant. All “societies” are designed to create rules of behavior as opposed to the anarchy of isolated individuals. Your point is not meaningful in this debate.
Me: My point about a regulated Democracy is no more and no less relevant to this discussion than you point about Democracy.
You: (In response to my points on other nations) Did you actually look at those statistics? You may be surprised by the way that the statistical ages are grouped. And how are those statistics derived? What is the effect of the average life statistic if in once country an infant that dies after birth is called a live birth and in another is not called a live birth? There is a reason why there is an old saying that there are lies, damned lies and statistics. A final point, what does a higher average life expectancy have to do with the quality of medical care that you or I receive? Please consider this point carefully because the two may be totally unrelated.
Me: Well the statistics were taken by the same group, which means they used the same standards for every nation. But, yes, I agree that statistics can be misguided, unless you know how the studies were taken, but I find it strange that you can point to ridiculous allegations that public health care will make our senior citizens choose when they are going to die. especially after being so scientifically and systematically skeptical about the other side.
You: (in response to my point about tired arguments) I did not need to see videos of most of those debates. I lived through them. You may find living in a Nanny state to be pleasurable. I do not. The difference between the US and most of the rest of the world is its unique history. We broke the mold of kings and potentates ruling our lives, telling us what to wear, where to live, how to act, where to travel. Keep in mind those rules – every one – were designed for the “good of the people.” Jews were rounded up and liquidated for the good of the master race; kulaks were starved to death to bring the blessings of prosperity to the rest of the Russians. There will always be people who know what’s best for you and when they get their hands on the police powers of the state will enforce their view of a better tomorrow. And somehow, the things they enforce on you and me are never applied to them – like cheating on their income taxes (sound familiar?).
I am unaware that we have a nationalized fire department. Are we speaking the same language?
First: When there is a raging forest fire in any part of this nation, who puts it out? The good people in our neighborhood billion dollar multinational corporations? no. Our state own fire department does that. Just like what our state owned fire department does when you house ketches on fire. (This was not true in the earlier times of this country, where the corporate fire department would only put out fires that happened to rich people's homes, letting entire cities burn to the ground.)
Second: Throughout human history, there have been institutions of power influencing the lives of everyone else. The point is do we want that power in the hands to the people, through a government of, for, and by the people, or do we want rich corporations to take place of rich noblemen and warlords, like they have in our society? (big bailouts, Exxon mobile subsidies, and Coca-Cola subsidies) and corporate leaders always concider themselves above the law (taxing themselves as if they were home to the Camen islands with just about a 2% tax rate, corporate bonuses, etc.) If you are advocating an extremely decentralized world, than don't look at 19th century America, where one company owned everything from your home to the place you bought your stuff, look at you good fried Lenin. He campaigned for that type of society all his life. (he advocated communism, not socialism. communism advocates a world with no government and only communities and families getting t decide what they want) HE failed miserably.
Fourth: There have always been bad governments, just like there are bad corporations. Those bad government have come from illiterate, uneducated societies, not from a society like ours, where everyone can go to some type of school. And killing Jews is very different than providing proper medical care, which has worked in countless countries that would never do something that Hitler did.
Fifth: Countless nations from all over the world have had struggles for democracy like ours from France to India and Taiwan to Canada, and countless more are going through that struggle today (Iran, Burma, U.S.S.R). You should get around a little. We are not nearly as different from the rest of the world as our media and politicians say we are. If public health care works in so many other countries, it will work here.
Sixth: Are you actually advocating we go back to a nation with horribly disgusting rivers, acid rain, a massive number of car crashes and a fire department that doesn't serve everyone?
You: The Japanese are only a generation away from a dictatorship and the worship of their Emperor as a God. I have been there and their society is nothing like ours. Incidentally, they are only a few generations away from disappearing. You should check their birth rates. In fact, you should check the birth rates of most of the countries that Liberals admire. A replacement rate for a population is about 2.1 per female. The US is slightly above that rate. Most of the countries you admire are well below – including Japan and Russia.
You obviously have no idea how the Japanese health care system works. But it is good to hear your inner hatred for Asians,however irrelevant it truly is. They are a generation away from empire, we are a generation away from Jim Crow. Also, It is a natural human behavior to stop having as many kids when you are well educated and content. Immigration is making up for there low birth rate. Seems fine to let Asia get a little more breathing room to me. Al long as you maintain you population's size in the long term, whats the problem?
You: I don’t mind the yelling so much. It’s a pleasure to find that my side has finally found its voice and its own medium. That’s what made the Gates claims of racism ricochet on both Gates and Obama. Democracy and freedom... it’s great.
If by your side you mean fiscal conservatism, than that's true. If you mean Rush Limbaugh and "defense" conservatives, than your a dying breed. (for the record, I don't support the democratic party, I am Independent, and don't support either party)
The same horrible government health care plan that you fear today is already given to our veterans. If the system is so horrible, why do the republicans want to give it to people who really need good health care? I don't see any WWII vets being told to die or denied coverage. The only people denied coverage are those who pay their dews to insurance companies.
Also, in the Netherlands, as in many states in the US, a patient can choose, if it can be proven that they are terminally ill and mentally sound, they can choose to die peacefully rather than painfully. Nowhere is that choice thrust upon people us.
Obama said that if there are two pills out there that work just as good, but one is a whole lot cheaper, why not go for the cheaper one. That's the truth, try seeing the actual clip.
As for the gay marriage issue: Just like with racial rights and interracial marriage, your view is slowly but surely dying away. A generation or two down the line, you will be considered no different than the KKK or it's affiliates.
Sarah Palin doesn't even know what the Bush Doctrine is. There are plenty of far more educated, successful women out there.
I am an immigrant too, where did you immigrate from?
Our conversation has been interesting to this point, but now I’m afraid I have to cut it short. I don’t debate with people who regurgitate talking point without checking into the facts behind those points. For example, look up the life expectancy figures rather than repeating the talking point. Then look up the sources of those statistics.
Second I don’t debate with people who demonize corporations. Their characterization of corporations has all of the intellectual rigor of Nazis discussing Jews.
Third, I have neither an inner not outer hatred for Asians of any stripe. I am simply observing that until the end of World War 2, the Japanese were ruled by a God-emperor and his shoguns. This is a fact and I used it to demonstrate that the Japanese so-called “love” of free markets is not a cultural heritage. Nor is it a reality since the Japanese government has – via MITI – directed its industrial development since the end of WW2. My comment regarding the Japanese birth rate is simply a fact. Unless the Japanese produce enough children to replace themselves, their population will decrease, the number of elderly will increase to the point that there will not be enough young Japanese to support the remaining elderly. Last point re Japan, you may want to check out the policies of the Japanese government regarding people who wish to immigrate into Japan.
A final point, Dutch elderly are now afraid to enter hospitals in fear that they won’t leave alive. This is not an ill-founded fear. It’s amazing how the right to die with dignity morphs into the duty to die to save the government – or the relatives - money.
I believe that if you try to educate yourself about many of these issues, you will learn to think for yourself. But until you get beyond slogans and bumper sticker thought, I’m afraid that you will not be persuasive.
I enjoyed the great academic discourse offered here I would like to support you and your thorough explanations. I believe that nothing satisfies the supper liberals and that Obama has a tough job to do as he is losing support and facing increasing attacks from republicans and democrats. I hope that someday people will realize that the middle is usually a better road traveled as the far left and far right offer ideas that to me seam too outrageous to consider. I think that the idea of lets spread the wealth is ridiculous and that maybe you should have lived in the Ussr to enjoy that but seeing as that did not turn out I guess the next step is to corrupt the system at hand. People need to realize that welfare Medicare medical and a bunch of those socialized programs must have reform I believe we all agree on that but what we don’t need is a giant government expenditure and a increase to our debt when we are already deficit spending. (Yes yes we know you came here with a debt) But that has been occurring since Clinton and before Clinton “saved money” by cutting the military to pay for more programs that cost us way more maybe we will learn something from that. SO I hope that one day soon we can realize that yes we do need some kind of health care reform for the already almost broke Medicare (and don’t count paper IOUs as its ok). Kind Regards Loving caring Senior from California
With all of the problems our country faces and has faced since at least 9/11, I am disgusted by the level of hate both parties continue to spew. I hate you, all of you! You make me ashamed to be an American. "Operation Embarrass your congressman" is an attempt to impede the democratic process in an attempt to push an idiotic partisan agenda based on a lie: "health reform is socialism."
There are three factions that make up our country:republicans, democrats and Americans. I'm the later and consider you people my adversary.
I'm inclined to pay attention only to those fellow Americans (not partisans, thank you) who will please, please, LEARN HOW TO SPELL. Forget the debate. If people cannot articulate their positions using a high-minded form of the common tongue, they come off as ranting, uneducated teenagers. Murdering spelling and grammar in your posts devalues anything you have to say to posterity. (Or, perhaps no one knows how to type...)
Do you want to do nothing with health care? Just wondering.
ReplyDeleteFunny you should ask. I visited Johns Hopkins today. Their medical facility is what the future of medicine should be.
ReplyDeleteIt is not my job to do something to "healthcare." We have the best doctors and hospitals in the world. They have kept me alive.
My first concern is that a government based sytem will have regulations that determine that at some time the cost of keeping me alive is not worth it. If my health (and yours) is being paid for by society - the government - at some point government agents will determine that my life is not worth it ... take a pill and wait for death.
No thanks. That's not a decision I will entrust to you, or to anyone.
Is the "system" perfect?
No.
But - like Democracy - it's better than one that's run and regulated by the government.
I had a few points about your reply.
ReplyDeleteFirst, Democracy is regulated to an extant, which is important.
Second, I have actually lived in countries with government run health care, and studied many systems in other countries with government health care, and in no country with government health care are people told not to be taken care of. The only health related organizations that exist today that try to take away your health care are insurance corporations.
Third, yes, the care we get inside the doctors office is the best in the world, but every country that has some type of government run health care actually has a higher average life expectancy then our country does. This should be taken into account.
And fourth, I saw some old videos of debates over things like a minimum wage, seat belts, a nationalized fire department (I didn't watch a video about this one, I read about it) and medicare, and the same argument of government takeovers and socialism were used then as are being used now. Seat belts and a national fire department did not give us socialism.
Also, I was wondering what you thought about the Japanese system? They love their free markets like we do, and their system isn't going so far up in cost like ours.
I liked your clean, policy based response you gave me, unlike all the yelling we hear so much from both sides on the media.
I had just one more question. If you think the government shouldn't tell us how to live, do you think the government should be allowed to tell us who we can and cannot marry? Or weather a woman who has been raped can get an abortion? Again, just wondering. (I hope we can continue to keep this civil)
Of course I can keep it civil. It’s the opposition that has a history of shouting down its opponents. To your points:
ReplyDeleteYou: First, Democracy is regulated to an extant [sic] , which is important.
Me: But irrelevant. All “societies” are designed to create rules of behavior as opposed to the anarchy of isolated individuals. Your point is not meaningful in this debate.
You: Second, I have actually lived in countries with government run health care, and studied many systems in other countries with government health care, and in no country with government health care are people told not to be taken care of. The only health related organizations that exist today that try to take away your health care are insurance corporations.
Me: Good for you. If you have read me enough you should be aware that I am an immigrant so I am probably even more aware than you are of countries and societies other than the US. The problem with any good or service that is “free” is that there is never an endless supply. So limits have to be set on the amount of that good that can be supplied. In most cases, it’s a matter of rationing – either formally or informally as in the case of waiting lists for medical procedures. In an increasing number of cases in parts of Europe, like the Netherlands, the elderly sick are quietly put to sleep. Obama has explicitly stated in a reply to a woman who inquired about her elderly mother that at some point she should be given a pill – in other words, put down by the government run system.
You: Third, yes, the care we get inside the doctors office is the best in the world, but every country that has some type of government run health care actually has a higher average life expectancy then our country does. This should be taken into account.
Me: Did you actually look at those statistics? You may be surprised by the way that the statistical ages are grouped. And how are those statistics derived? What is the effect of the average life statistic if in once country an infant that dies after birth is called a live birth and in another is not called a live birth? There is a reason why there is an old saying that there are lies, damned lies and statistics. A final point, what does a higher average life expectancy have to do with the quality of medical care that you or I receive? Please consider this point carefully because the two may be totally unrelated.
You: And fourth, I saw some old videos of debates over things like a minimum wage, seat belts, a nationalized fire department (I didn't watch a video about this one, I read about it) and medicare, and the same argument of government takeovers and socialism were used then as are being used now. Seat belts and a national fire department did not give us socialism.
Me: I did not need to see videos of most of those debates. I lived through them. You may find living in a Nanny state to be pleasurable. I do not. The difference between the US and most of the rest of the world is its unique history. We broke the mold of kings and potentates ruling our lives, telling us what to wear, where to live, how to act, where to travel. Keep in mind those rules – every one – were designed for the “good of the people.” Jews were rounded up and liquidated for the good of the master race; kulaks were starved to death to bring the blessings of prosperity to the rest of the Russians. There will always be people who know what’s best for you and when they get their hands on the police powers of the state will enforce their view of a better tomorrow. And somehow, the things they enforce on you and me are never applied to them – like cheating on their income taxes (sound familiar?).
I am unaware that we have a nationalized fire department. Are we speaking the same language?
Response part 2:
ReplyDeleteYou: Also, I was wondering what you thought about the Japanese system? They love their free markets like we do, and their system isn't going so far up in cost like ours.
Me: The Japanese are only a generation away from a dictatorship and the worship of their Emperor as a God. I have been there and their society is nothing like ours. Incidentally, they are only a few generations away from disappearing. You should check their birth rates. In fact, you should check the birth rates of most of the countries that Liberals admire. A replacement rate for a population is about 2.1 per female. The US is slightly above that rate. Most of the countries you admire are well below – including Japan and Russia.
You: I liked your clean, policy based response you gave me, unlike all the yelling we hear so much from both sides on the media.
Me: I don’t mind the yelling so much. It’s a pleasure to find that my side has finally found its voice and its own medium. That’s what made the Gates claims of racism ricochet on both Gates and Obama. Democracy and freedom... it’s great.
You: I had just one more question. If you think the government shouldn't tell us how to live, do you think the government should be allowed to tell us who we can and cannot marry? Or weather a woman who has been raped can get an abortion? Again, just wondering. (I hope we can continue to keep this civil)
Me: Let’s take that a few steps further. Regarding marriage, the man/woman model is not something that the government suddenly sprung on us, is it? It’s a virtually universal model. You are asking for the elimination of a cultural rule. But let’s take that one step further. In some societies polygamy and polyandry is legal, should we adopt that? Why limit the state of matrimony to a single species? If I truly love my dog, who are you – your bigot – to tell me who or what I can’t marry?
We have laws in this country and throughout the world against killing another human being. If you consider a baby in the womb a human being, it should be unlawful to kill it. If it’s not a human being, what is it? But let’s take it a few steps further. In ancient Rome it was legal for the father of the family to kill his children who were part of his family. If we can kill children in the womb, why not give us a chance to kill it after it leaves? And what is this about rape? What numbers of abortions are performed on babies that were conceived by rape?
One of the reasons that the Liberal community is so angry at Sarah Palin is that she is a successful woman who has a loving husband and a large family – one of which is a Down’s Syndrome child – who by the Liberal rules should have been aborted. Imagine the gall of achieving all that the Left has said a woman should achieve and to actually deliver a special needs child. Every image of baby Trig is a stick in the eye of the Left.
Regards.
Part One:
ReplyDeleteI don't find yelling random crap in hearings to be civil, buy anyway:
You: (In response to my point about Democracy)But irrelevant. All “societies” are designed to create rules of behavior as opposed to the anarchy of isolated individuals. Your point is not meaningful in this debate.
Me: My point about a regulated Democracy is no more and no less relevant to this discussion than you point about Democracy.
You: (In response to my points on other nations) Did you actually look at those statistics? You may be surprised by the way that the statistical ages are grouped. And how are those statistics derived? What is the effect of the average life statistic if in once country an infant that dies after birth is called a live birth and in another is not called a live birth? There is a reason why there is an old saying that there are lies, damned lies and statistics. A final point, what does a higher average life expectancy have to do with the quality of medical care that you or I receive? Please consider this point carefully because the two may be totally unrelated.
Me: Well the statistics were taken by the same group, which means they used the same standards for every nation. But, yes, I agree that statistics can be misguided, unless you know how the studies were taken, but I find it strange that you can point to ridiculous allegations that public health care will make our senior citizens choose when they are going to die. especially after being so scientifically and systematically skeptical about the other side.
You: (in response to my point about tired arguments) I did not need to see videos of most of those debates. I lived through them. You may find living in a Nanny state to be pleasurable. I do not. The difference between the US and most of the rest of the world is its unique history. We broke the mold of kings and potentates ruling our lives, telling us what to wear, where to live, how to act, where to travel. Keep in mind those rules – every one – were designed for the “good of the people.” Jews were rounded up and liquidated for the good of the master race; kulaks were starved to death to bring the blessings of prosperity to the rest of the Russians. There will always be people who know what’s best for you and when they get their hands on the police powers of the state will enforce their view of a better tomorrow. And somehow, the things they enforce on you and me are never applied to them – like cheating on their income taxes (sound familiar?).
I am unaware that we have a nationalized fire department. Are we speaking the same language?
(continued in next post)
Part Two:
ReplyDeleteMe:
I have several points to make here:
First: When there is a raging forest fire in any part of this nation, who puts it out? The good people in our neighborhood billion dollar multinational corporations? no. Our state own fire department does that. Just like what our state owned fire department does when you house ketches on fire. (This was not true in the earlier times of this country, where the corporate fire department would only put out fires that happened to rich people's homes, letting entire cities burn to the ground.)
Second: Throughout human history, there have been institutions of power influencing the lives of everyone else. The point is do we want that power in the hands to the people, through a government of, for, and by the people, or do we want rich corporations to take place of rich noblemen and warlords, like they have in our society? (big bailouts, Exxon mobile subsidies, and Coca-Cola subsidies) and corporate leaders always concider themselves above the law (taxing themselves as if they were home to the Camen islands with just about a 2% tax rate, corporate bonuses, etc.) If you are advocating an extremely decentralized world, than don't look at 19th century America, where one company owned everything from your home to the place you bought your stuff, look at you good fried Lenin. He campaigned for that type of society all his life. (he advocated communism, not socialism. communism advocates a world with no government and only communities and families getting t decide what they want) HE failed miserably.
Fourth: There have always been bad governments, just like there are bad corporations. Those bad government have come from illiterate, uneducated societies, not from a society like ours, where everyone can go to some type of school. And killing Jews is very different than providing proper medical care, which has worked in countless countries that would never do something that Hitler did.
Fifth: Countless nations from all over the world have had struggles for democracy like ours from France to India and Taiwan to Canada, and countless more are going through that struggle today (Iran, Burma, U.S.S.R). You should get around a little. We are not nearly as different from the rest of the world as our media and politicians say we are. If public health care works in so many other countries, it will work here.
Sixth: Are you actually advocating we go back to a nation with horribly disgusting rivers, acid rain, a massive number of car crashes and a fire department that doesn't serve everyone?
You: The Japanese are only a generation away from a dictatorship and the worship of their Emperor as a God. I have been there and their society is nothing like ours. Incidentally, they are only a few generations away from disappearing. You should check their birth rates. In fact, you should check the birth rates of most of the countries that Liberals admire. A replacement rate for a population is about 2.1 per female. The US is slightly above that rate. Most of the countries you admire are well below – including Japan and Russia.
You obviously have no idea how the Japanese health care system works. But it is good to hear your inner hatred for Asians,however irrelevant it truly is. They are a generation away from empire, we are a generation away from Jim Crow.
Also, It is a natural human behavior to stop having as many kids when you are well educated and content. Immigration is making up for there low birth rate. Seems fine to let Asia get a little more breathing room to me. Al long as you maintain you population's size in the long term, whats the problem?
Part Three:
ReplyDeleteYou: I don’t mind the yelling so much. It’s a pleasure to find that my side has finally found its voice and its own medium. That’s what made the Gates claims of racism ricochet on both Gates and Obama. Democracy and freedom... it’s great.
If by your side you mean fiscal conservatism, than that's true. If you mean Rush Limbaugh and "defense" conservatives, than your a dying breed. (for the record, I don't support the democratic party, I am Independent, and don't support either party)
The same horrible government health care plan that you fear today is already given to our veterans. If the system is so horrible, why do the republicans want to give it to people who really need good health care? I don't see any WWII vets being told to die or denied coverage. The only people denied coverage are those who pay their dews to insurance companies.
Also, in the Netherlands, as in many states in the US, a patient can choose, if it can be proven that they are terminally ill and mentally sound, they can choose to die peacefully rather than painfully. Nowhere is that choice thrust upon people us.
Obama said that if there are two pills out there that work just as good, but one is a whole lot cheaper, why not go for the cheaper one. That's the truth, try seeing the actual clip.
As for the gay marriage issue: Just like with racial rights and interracial marriage, your view is slowly but surely dying away. A generation or two down the line, you will be considered no different than the KKK or it's affiliates.
Sarah Palin doesn't even know what the Bush Doctrine is. There are plenty of far more educated, successful women out there.
I am an immigrant too, where did you immigrate from?
Natehc1984,
ReplyDeleteOur conversation has been interesting to this point, but now I’m afraid I have to cut it short. I don’t debate with people who regurgitate talking point without checking into the facts behind those points. For example, look up the life expectancy figures rather than repeating the talking point. Then look up the sources of those statistics.
Second I don’t debate with people who demonize corporations. Their characterization of corporations has all of the intellectual rigor of Nazis discussing Jews.
Third, I have neither an inner not outer hatred for Asians of any stripe. I am simply observing that until the end of World War 2, the Japanese were ruled by a God-emperor and his shoguns. This is a fact and I used it to demonstrate that the Japanese so-called “love” of free markets is not a cultural heritage. Nor is it a reality since the Japanese government has – via MITI – directed its industrial development since the end of WW2. My comment regarding the Japanese birth rate is simply a fact. Unless the Japanese produce enough children to replace themselves, their population will decrease, the number of elderly will increase to the point that there will not be enough young Japanese to support the remaining elderly. Last point re Japan, you may want to check out the policies of the Japanese government regarding people who wish to immigrate into Japan.
A final point, Dutch elderly are now afraid to enter hospitals in fear that they won’t leave alive. This is not an ill-founded fear. It’s amazing how the right to die with dignity morphs into the duty to die to save the government – or the relatives - money.
I believe that if you try to educate yourself about many of these issues, you will learn to think for yourself. But until you get beyond slogans and bumper sticker thought, I’m afraid that you will not be persuasive.
Best.
I enjoyed the great academic discourse offered here I would like to support you and your thorough explanations. I believe that nothing satisfies the supper liberals and that Obama has a tough job to do as he is losing support and facing increasing attacks from republicans and democrats. I hope that someday people will realize that the middle is usually a better road traveled as the far left and far right offer ideas that to me seam too outrageous to consider. I think that the idea of lets spread the wealth is ridiculous and that maybe you should have lived in the Ussr to enjoy that but seeing as that did not turn out I guess the next step is to corrupt the system at hand. People need to realize that welfare Medicare medical and a bunch of those socialized programs must have reform I believe we all agree on that but what we don’t need is a giant government expenditure and a increase to our debt when we are already deficit spending. (Yes yes we know you came here with a debt) But that has been occurring since Clinton and before Clinton “saved money” by cutting the military to pay for more programs that cost us way more maybe we will learn something from that. SO I hope that one day soon we can realize that yes we do need some kind of health care reform for the already almost broke Medicare (and don’t count paper IOUs as its ok).
ReplyDeleteKind Regards
Loving caring
Senior from California
I had to see it to believe it...
ReplyDeleteWith all of the problems our country faces and has faced since at least 9/11, I am disgusted by the level of hate both parties continue to spew. I hate you, all of you! You make me ashamed to be an American. "Operation Embarrass your congressman" is an attempt to impede the democratic process in an attempt to push an idiotic partisan agenda based on a lie: "health reform is socialism."
There are three factions that make up our country:republicans, democrats and Americans. I'm the later and consider you people my adversary.
The sole purpose of this group is to rerun the election with the hope of winning this time.
ReplyDeleteThey want nothing to do with healthcare or reform of any type they just want to be in power again.
Manufactured anger. Nothing individual, nothing relavant.
I'm inclined to pay attention only to those fellow Americans (not partisans, thank you) who will please, please, LEARN HOW TO SPELL. Forget the debate. If people cannot articulate their positions using a high-minded form of the common tongue, they come off as ranting, uneducated teenagers. Murdering spelling and grammar in your posts devalues anything you have to say to posterity. (Or, perhaps no one knows how to type...)
ReplyDeleteMister Mike